[X] My Assistant

Over the past week or two, I've been thinking about how active EH Cove of Translators have been, churning out translated doujins almost on daily basis. In the past month alone, we've seen 38 translation bounties completed (104 in past 3 months). That's as prolific as major doujin scanslation groups like SaHa, LWB, Team Vanilla, and others.

In a sense, EHCT is already a major doujin scanslation group, as it meets several common criteria that such groups share:

* We have a central site for visitors to go to for downloads (EH Gallery) and discussion/feedback (forums)
* We consistently try to help each other improve our works with guides, and are always looking for more translators and editors
* Even though all of translations and editing are funded by bounties using fake money, it's not really that much different from doujin comission groups like SaHa and DesuDesu
* We cover a surprisingly good range of genre and themes, even some stuff that lot of people wouldn't feel comfortable with
* The bounties have already produced some notable doujins, like Bloodmare's Black Dog doujin bounties, Red Piotrus' Sailor Saturn and Dragon Pink series, and even several complete manga were done (via G Just G's bounties)
* Granted, there may be issues with translation and editing quality, but we strive to produce best quality possible (feedback, proof-reading, translation assistance, and so on)
* Translators and editors come and go, but that's same for any doujin groups so there's no difference
* We've also done few non-English translation bounties
* We've even attracted attention of some doujin scanslation groups

Unfortunately, we really aren't considered as a scanslation group, because we don't really function as a group. We're just basically group of individuals who's trying to get their works translated - even though we work surprisingly well as a group in a manner of speaking. Because of this, we suffer from lack of recognition - whenever our works are released, they're perceived as an individual work and thus treated as such and don't generate much awareness or appreciation on behalf of the individual.

That's why it's difficult for us to try and recruit new translators or editors, because we don't have the recognition that a group can grant. When a potentially interested translator and/or editor looks between one of our individual releases and a doujin group's releases, I'm sure he'd be far more likely to be interested in approaching the doujin group than one of us simply because of increased awareness of the group and community.

So if we can re-brand EHCT as a doujin scanslator group, we would immediately gain greater awareness among readers of our works. Our advertisements for new translators and editors would be more effective as well, especially when we can show visitors our collective efforts of our past works.

The one of the major benefits of re-branding of EHCT would be advertising, when various English-language doujin hosting sites such as Fakku, #Doujin-World, and Hentai.net groups our releases under a common name. Any visitors from those sites interested in finding out more about our releases would then come over to EH Galleries and its forums for more. EH Gallery already gives many doujin scanslation groups advertising as well by tagging their releases with their names, so it would benefit us all to have the opposite done as well.
We can even get listed on Mangaupdates (many doujin groups already do).

More incoming visitors means more potential translators and editors, and since we offer a form of incentive (bounties) to get our works translated and/or edited, there's no reason they can't take advantage of them to get what they want translated/edited for free (relatively-speaking).

What are your thoughts on this topic?


EDIT: EHCove was agreed upon as our tag. Done.

This post has been edited by lightshader: Nov 4 2011, 06:42

The best way to work is in secrecy so that no one can steal your works, you might need private threads.

I assume by works you mean scripts, as full releases are after all free for anybody I don't think we yet had a problem with that, and we often post scripts publicly.

The expunge rules help; if anybody would "steal" a translation, we would just expunge it. But that has never happened... and the system is rather friendly to editors: edit some translations for others, and you should have enough credits/hath to sponsor a translation you can then upload yourself.

Btw, I wanted to note that my latest EHCOVE release (Burst Angel dojin - http://ehentaihip.com/g/429329/d5358cffda/) was done by Salsk who while not very active on those forums seems an Established Translator (he send me some samples of his work in PM), so I didn't worry about whether the EHCOVE is appropriate. Similarly, the Comic Party by watisit should be fine, as he has done some other translations around here, right, LS? And of course anything done by rookie84 like the new MtM script he did is fine. Ditto for anything edited by expert editors like Super Shanko and LS.

Perhaps we could just discuss the scripts by translators here, have established list, and only ask the newbies for some proof of skill. Keep it as easy and manageable as possible, I don't really want to create extra work for anybody, myself included.

What other names we should add to our list? People, c7n88, sushi, hmmm, who else? Looking at my older bounties, cdragron, KageSennin, hmmm, Yamato...? I am a bit of a hurry so I may be forgetting somebody, sorry.

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Nov 5 2011, 03:15

Now that I've had time to mull over my thoughts on QC issue after bring up the subject, I'm going to share them here.

I don't want to make EHCOVE too exclusive, as that would defeat the purpose of us trying to make the bounty system little more accessible to those who can't afford standard commissions (like SaHa, etc), or can't join other groups because they're full or don't meet criterias they're looking for (i.e., already have enough of a particular position).

So I think it would be good idea to have a some sort of tier-based release system. The basic releases would be just individual releases, and may or may not be QC'd in some form or another so there's no reassurance of quality of the work. They're just standard releases so there's nothing special about them.

However if they're QC'd in some way (reliable translator, or good proofreader to catch mediocre translator's mistakes, etc), then they would be considered as official EHCove release. This should be considered as perk, really, because having your work associated with a group would boost its readership base. Just look at other doujin groups - doujins released by them generate more attention and traffic than those done by anonymous or individuals. This may not matter in EH Galleries where everything is available and centralized, but when it comes to outside distribution like BT, filesharing, hosting sites, having a group associated with your works can make big difference. So it's like a bonus if your work meets EHCove standards.

By making the tag a perk, we wouldn't really be discouraging bounty system, while at the same time ensuring that EHCove tag carries quality assurance. (I wouldn't want to consider J->C->E or any other second-hand source translation works for the tag, though - too much risk of uncertainty in the quality unless compared directly with the original).

I know that we're just getting started on ideas for qualifications, but I can suggest for starters that any works done by certain members tagged with something like 'trusted' status would automatically be considered as official EHCove release. That is, if a translation is done by someone who's already vetted by EHCove as consistently reliable, there's probably no need for QC so they can be tagged for EHCove release right away.

I like peopledontdancenomore's idea of having a second tag of "could use improvement", suggesting that the person's work is good, with some minor issues (good Japanese translators with English as Second Language, or people with very considerable knowledge of Japanese but not fluent yet could qualify for this). Their works could use some improvements that we can suggest, and be considered as likely EHCove release after revisions.

For works done by non-trusted members, maybe we can set up another thread where such works can be requested for EHCove tagging, where we can do some sort of QC control (proofreading translation, editing quality, etc) there and provide feedback on how to improve their works. I do agree that I don't want to make extra work for us all, so maybe we need only one aye from trusted status, or 2-3 ayes from "could use improvements" to make the requested work an EHCove release.

EDIT: Wanted to clarify the idea about another thread for EHCove requests - only translations produced by bounties should be recommended (after all, this is purpose of EHCove, to show works produced by the Bounty System), and if they're not vetted one way or other, it won't be much of a harm since there's a translation done already in the first place and the person who posted the bounty already won. They just don't have the quality assurance of the EHCove tag.

This post has been edited by lightshader: Nov 5 2011, 06:01

The expunge rules help; if anybody would "steal" a translation, we would just expunge it. But that has never happened...

And if someone independently came up with very similar translation... you would try to expunge it?
How do you know it's never happened?

I think expunging such work would bring profit only to the person who gains GP from the original gallery, and a loss to everyone else. I also think that all translations should be free for everyone else to improve upon, provided they state the fact that they used the translation as one of the starting points clearly somewhere in the gallery.

A race is won by driving fast, not by pushing others off the road.

I also think that all translations should be free for everyone else to improve upon, provided they state the fact that they used the translation as one of the starting points clearly somewhere in the gallery.

I don't like this argument at all. I don't mind if someone uses my work to translate into another language, and I welcome anyone to proofread my scripts before release, but I would be pissed if someone posted an "improved" version of one of my uploads in English. Do your own translation if you don't feel the one available is satisfactory.

And if someone independently came up with very similar translation... you would try to expunge it?
How do you know it's never happened?

I think expunging such work would bring profit only to the person who gains GP from the original gallery, and a loss to everyone else. I also think that all translations should be free for everyone else to improve upon, provided they state the fact that they used the translation as one of the starting points clearly somewhere in the gallery.

A race is won by driving fast, not by pushing others off the road.

Similar, probably no, also, editing would be different, that can sometimes be significant in itself.

Identical one, yes. The odds of translating everything the same way are way too low.

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Nov 6 2011, 00:55

What about re-editing of old script from LQ doujin to HQ version? There's a couple of doujins that's in LQ version that I've been thinking about re-editing into the newer HQ version.

What about re-editing of old script from LQ doujin to HQ version? There's a couple of doujins that's in LQ version that I've been thinking about re-editing into the newer HQ version.

Replace is valid, I know we replaced several sailor moon translations when the old translation was reedited into a much HQ scan. I think it was bubba's new scans or something like this, and I also think it was mostly Black Dog.

Frankly, considering that most "profits" (LOL) come from the first few days of a gallery being posted, I don't think why would anybody care that their old release is updated, provided editing is indeed an improvement, and credits are preserved.

If you get the original translator's permission, go ahead. Otherwise no, get a new script. Speaking for myself, I would be offended if someone decided to redo my earliest uploads, which I admit are pretty crappy editing jobs, into "HQ" versions without permission.

And really, isn't there enough of an editing backlog without adding stuff that's already been done to it?

I'm with Rookie on this. If some person took it upon them self to redo my earlier edits (which I'm are aware are crappy) I'd be pissed (unless they were someone else' upload). I had planned on re-editing some of my favorite older stuff but these constant requests keep me busy *wishes for the Prestige machine*.

It is always proper etiquette to ask for permission.

But what when you cannot, because the translator/editor is anonymous, and you know you could do a much better job with new hq scans? Then I still support reediting. If you don't make it easy for others to contact you and suggest improvements, you should not have the right to bitch if they improve your work.

I don't like this argument at all. I don't mind if someone uses my work to translate into another language, and I welcome anyone to proofread my scripts before release, but I would be pissed if someone posted an "improved" version of one of my uploads in English. Do your own translation if you don't feel the one available is satisfactory.

Well, I'm not saying you can't be angry if someone states his translation fixed mistakes in yours, or some such. Though I probably wouldn't care, because it's only his opinion, and I can take it as a set of suggestions for me to check if they would benefit my translation according to my own opinion.

If you get the original translator's permission, go ahead. Otherwise no, get a new script. Speaking for myself, I would be offended if someone decided to redo my earliest uploads, which I admit are pretty crappy editing jobs, into "HQ" versions without permission.

And really, isn't there enough of an editing backlog without adding stuff that's already been done to it?

I'm with Rookie on this. If some person took it upon them self to redo my earlier edits (which I'm are aware are crappy) I'd be pissed (unless they were someone else' upload). I had planned on re-editing some of my favorite older stuff but these constant requests keep me busy *wishes for the Prestige machine*.

It is always proper etiquette to ask for permission.

I can't see how you maintain your integrity... I mean, I think there are two conflicting viewpoints - one that if you create something, manga, doujin, translation, edit, whatever, then it's yours to manage your rights over it forever, and everyone else has to ask your permission for everything, ie. that it's a kind of your property. That's [en.wikipedia.org] permission culture. The other that we all, as a society, create culture, of which our creations are part, and we understand that it benefits all of us, and that if the work can be built upon by subsequent creators, it has a change to grow into something more than I could make it by myself, ie. that it can't be a property, it belongs to all of us like knowledge. That's [en.wikipedia.org] remix culture. I stand by that second viewpoint.

Now, by translating and editing mangas, I don't think you ask for permissions of their original creators - if you did, you'd probably have to go for publishers who licensed rights for them, and the typical answer would be to pay thousands for licence - and so it would appear you stand by the second viewpoint.

But then, after you yourself add to the creative process, you get attached to your creation and believe that you should maintain some control over it, refuse everyone else to build upon it, possibly better it, possibly make it worse - it's up to the readers to decide in the end. That looks like shifting to the first viewpoint, when it comes to your own creation. I don't see why, as someone using your works to make it easier for them to focus on details you didn't have so much time to manage when you were making it doesn't eliminate your work from existence - it's still where it was, and it would be forever there. You reuse letters, words, and idioms of the language you translate into, and it seems natural for you. All culture builds upon earlier works, [en.wikipedia.org] stands on the shoulders of giants...

@Dlaglacz

What I disagree with about your position is that you're arguing in absolutes: either your work must belong to you forever and ever, or anyone can do whatever they want to whatever you do. Total control or total anarchy are not the only two choices in the world; most people choose to lie somewhere between the two.

I am fully aware that by putting out translations of doujinshi and manga, what I'm doing is questionable ethically and unfair to the original author. I am uncomfortable with it. But there is no other way for the doujinshi/manga to be available in English, and I salve my conscience somewhat by refusing to take money for what I do (other than credits/GP/hath, which are absolutely useless outside E-Hentai). I guess you could say that I believe there is honor among thieves, while you seem to be arguing that that is impossible.

When I translate something, I am not in any way suggesting that I've improved the work; I'm changing it laterally or even providing an inferior product to make it available to a new audience. The original is still superior. But revising an existing translation implies that the previous work was inferior, which I find disrespectful. If the existing translation is objectively bad, it is a far better alternative to redo it than revise it.

Like I stated before, I am fine with anybody translating my work into another language: that's what I've done after all, and I wouldn't be capable of translating into Spanish/French/whatever even if I tried. But if you keep it in English, the only ways I can see my work being improved upon is a: revising the main text b: adding in the maegaki/atogaki c: adding in the SFXs. To be qualified to do a and b, you must be a better translator than I am, in which case why the fuck won't you do your own translation in the first place? And doing c is a subjective argument; as I argued elsewhere, I find the value of translating SFXs questionable at best.

To summarize my position: translating into another language is a significant change that opens up a work to a new audience and does not imply that the original is an inferior product. Revising a translation while keeping it in the same language is a cosmetic change with limited subjective value that implies the existing translation is inferior. I am okay with the former and irritated with the latter.

I can't see how you maintain your integrity... I mean, I think there are two conflicting viewpoints\

[grumbling.us] Kali's morality makes it simple

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Nov 7 2011, 16:20

I understand, and there is a middle ground, which is in fact copyright - but it's been blown out of proportion nowadays, and I think it should be returned to opt-in and up to a few years at most, given the speed with which cultural exchange is making memes obsolete nowadays, compared to 200 years ago.

When I translate something, I am not in any way suggesting that I've improved the work; I'm changing it laterally or even providing an inferior product to make it available to a new audience. The original is still superior. But revising an existing translation implies that the previous work was inferior, which I find disrespectful. If the existing translation is objectively bad, it is a far better alternative to redo it than revise it.

To summarize my position: translating into another language is a significant change that opens up a work to a new audience and does not imply that the original is an inferior product. Revising a translation while keeping it in the same language is a cosmetic change with limited subjective value that implies the existing translation is inferior. I am okay with the former and irritated with the latter.

I think you are missing something here. A translation is one of the ways to connect specific audience with the work. You argue that a language is the most basic element that defines a specific audience, ie. that there is the objectively best translation of something to English, and that all translations can be rated from worst to best, or at least for each pair of them one can say which is better, no matter who one is.

But then, there's UK English, and there's US English, and there's Australian English etc. At the same time.
Also, there's English or now, and English of 5 years ago, and of 10 years ago.

Imagine a doujin with a great amount of local slang, which you need to translate faithfully to English local slang. It's important that it's a local, and not nationwide slurs. You make the best possible job of it, and only use expressions which apply in your town, and its surroundings.

Now, you think that your work should not be modified to use a different slang used in another town, or ways of speaking English used in a different country, and that it should not be modified when in your local town 5 years from now certain expressions go out of fashion, and are replaced by different ones, because all these adjustments would mean to you that your work is globally inferior... I don't understand this.

After all, they made St. John's Bible once, and since then they've translated it to modern English. I suppose the fact that the language from the times when it was translated is unintelligible to a lot of people nowadays is not a good reason to make another translation directly into modern English, as it implies the St John's Bible is inferior?

I think you are missing something here. A translation is one of the ways to connect specific audience with the work. You argue that a language is the most basic element that defines a specific audience, ie. that there is the objectively best translation of something to English, and that all translations can be rated from worst to best, or at least for each pair of them one can say which is better, no matter who one is.

But then, there's UK English, and there's US English, and there's Australian English etc. At the same time.
Also, there's English or now, and English of 5 years ago, and of 10 years ago.

Imagine a doujin with a great amount of local slang, which you need to translate faithfully to English local slang. It's important that it's a local, and not nationwide slurs. You make the best possible job of it, and only use expressions which apply in your town, and its surroundings.

Now, you think that your work should not be modified to use a different slang used in another town, or ways of speaking English used in a different country, and that it should not be modified when in your local town 5 years from now certain expressions go out of fashion, and are replaced by different ones, because all these adjustments would mean to you that your work is globally inferior... I don't understand this.

After all, they made St. John's Bible once, and since then they've translated it to modern English. I suppose the fact that the language from the times when it was translated is unintelligible to a lot of people nowadays is not a good reason to make another translation directly into modern English, as it implies the St John's Bible is inferior?

I think I am missing something here. I specifically said that the reason I accept translations is because they don't imply that they've improved upon the original. If two versions of English are incompatible without a bridging translation, then to me that's no different than translating from English into Spanish/French/Esperanto/etc., even if the two languages ostensibly have the same name. So, translating the St. John's Bible into modern English would be equivalent to translating it into Japanese, except one would be so that modern-day English speakers can read it, while the other would be so that Japanese speakers can read it.

What I disagree with is improving upon a translation that is aimed at the same audience as the existing version. So to take your examples, if I made a circa 2011 US English translation, I would mean someone who takes my translation and makes a "better" circa 2011 US English version. I find that presumptuous, runs counter to the general direction of quality for translations (i.e., there is always something lost in translation), and would much rather that other person make his own translation from the source material if he finds my version lacking.

I will admit, however, that at this point in time, I do not consider US/UK/Australian English to have drifted so far apart that it would be worthwhile to redo any of the translations in the EH galleries into the local variants, so I will be very offended if someone decides to do that to any of my translations.

I guess I would just consider someone's opinion that they 'improved' my translation as just that, their opinion, and pondered upon whether their opinion should hold enough weight with me to spark any feelings about it

I have to say, I'm sort of shocked at how popular this turned out to be. >100k visits in less than two days? When I translated it, I thought it was cute but nothing special. Is Taropun a really popular author and I just wasn't aware of it?

Maybe hobbitmon just knew something we didn't(?) It must've been less 12 hours when I first saw it and it was already near at least 100 favs.

I have to say, I'm sort of shocked at how popular this turned out to be. >100k visits in less than two days? When I translated it, I thought it was cute but nothing special. Is Taropun a really popular author and I just wasn't aware of it?

After reading the story, the premise is awesome. That's probably why it's so popular right now.

On the bright side, if it's being so popular right now on EH Galleries, that means it's bound to be popular outside EH and thus a great advertising material.

Perfect.