[X] My Assistant

Despite how messy the last proposal went in the end, there are some valid points raised from there. Particularly, how the "gender bender" tag in its current state doesn't satisfy both groups of audience:

• Those who are only interested in gender changing through body transformation have to deal with possession works, due to the inclusion of "possession".
• Those who are interested in everything have to deal with tags combination, due to the mutual exclusivity with "body swap".

It is clear that "gender bender" suffers from searchability issues. As such, after some internal discussions between the staff, we propose the following:

Revising the current "gender bender" tag to "gender change":

CODE

gender change
Type: Attribute / Change / Visual
Sub-Type: Change, Gender
Description: A character changes gender from their usual one through any means (e.g. transformation, possession, and body swap).
Notes: Should not be confused with crossdressing.
       Presence extends to the duration of the person being of a different gender.
       A female becoming a futanari does not qualify.
       For parodies (e.g. female ranma saotome) the change itself does not have to be shown.
       Special notes apply to cosplay galleries, see the talk page for details.
Gender: The original gender of the one changed determines if the tag is placed in the female or male namespace.
Japanese: 女性転換（♂→♀）・男性転換（♀→♂）
Slave Tags: Female, Male - with notable synonyms gender bender.

Examples (kindly provided by Shank):
- http://ehentaihip.com/g/2075618/4e31301b46/ (through transformation)
- http://ehentaihip.com/g/1221786/f127ef25b7/ (through possession)
- http://ehentaihip.com/g/1740366/bcaa55e31c/ (through body swap)
- http://ehentaihip.com/g/1868346/a14b5e52c8/ (through head swap)

Add a new "gender morph" tag:

CODE

gender morph
Type: Attribute / Change / Visual
Sub-Type: Change, Gender
Description: A character's body changes gender from their original one through body transformation. May invoke transformation if it is shown as a sequence and not a sudden change.
Notes: Requires the gender change tag.
       Should not be confused with possession and body swap.
       Presence extends to the duration of the person being of a different gender.
       A female becoming a futanari does not qualify.
       For parodies (e.g. female ranma saotome) the transformation itself does not have to be shown.
Gender: The original gender of the one transformed determines if the tag is placed in the female or male namespace.
Japanese: 女体化（♂→♀）・男体化（♀→♂）
Slave Tags: Female, Male - with notable synonyms gender transformation.

Examples (note that "gender change" is also applicable to these works):
- http://ehentaihip.com/g/1651402/9fa48b68a8/
- http://ehentaihip.com/g/1231436/0231408faa/
- http://ehentaihip.com/g/2075618/4e31301b46/

The general idea is that "gender change" will serve as the catch-all variant of "gender bender", while "gender morph" will be the specific variant - where ONLY gender bending done through body transformation will be acceptable. This revision can help users to identify works better. To demonstrate that, let's compare the old and new method side by side:

20-pages doujin A -
- Shank's body transforming into a girl [1 page]
- Shank stayed as a girl [5 pages]
--> Old Method: "gender bender"
--> New Method: "gender morph", "gender change"

20-pages doujin B -
- Shank's body transforming into a girl [5 pages]
- Shank stayed as a girl [5 pages]
--> Old Method: "gender bender", "transformation"
--> New Method: "gender morph", "gender change", "transformation"

20-pages doujin C -
- Shank possesses a female [1 page]
- Shank is rolling with that female body [5 pages]
--> Old Method: "gender bender", "possession"
--> New Method: "gender change", "possession"

20-pages doujin D -
- Shank swaps a body with a girl [1 page]
- Shank is rolling with that female body [5 pages]
--> Old Method: "body swap"
--> New Method: "gender change", "body swap"

20-pages doujin E -
- Shank possesses a female [1 page]
- Shank is rolling with that female body [5 pages]
- Mayriad's body transforming into a girl [1 page]
- Mayriad stayed as a girl [5 pages]
--> Old Method: "gender bender", "possession"
--> New Method: "gender morph", "possession", "gender change"

For users who are interested in everything gender bending (A, B, C, D, E), the old method requires the users to use both "gender bender" and "body swap" tags. With this revision, they can just ID all these works using only the "gender change" tag.

For users who are interested in gender bending only when it is done through body transformation (A, B, E), the old method just flawed no matter how you manipulate the tags:
- Using the "gender bender" only will index the unwanted work C.
- Combining "gender bender" and "transformation" together will miss out on work A and E.
- Using the exclusion approach (i.e. "gender bender" -"possession") will miss out on work E.

But with the new method, just do a "gender morph" search, and A, B, and E will all be identified correctly.

This post has been edited by PrincessKaguya: Dec 13 2021, 06:58

"Gender swap" is a phrase typically associated with meta discussion(eg, gender swapping a character in an adaptation, the rule 63 business, etc), so I don't think it would be suited as a name for gender bender.

Alternatives then?

Note that we expect users to read the definition anyway. More "fitting" names are of course preferred if available, but it's generally not an issue unless conflict with our established tags.

EDIT: We could roll with "gender change" instead if that works better.

This post has been edited by PrincessKaguya: Dec 6 2021, 18:04

EDIT: We could roll with "gender change" instead if that works better.

Revised the name from "gender swap" to "gender change".

Will implement the changes on next Wednesday if no objection.

Has my support

This means a female transforming into a shemale does not qualify, right?

I'm in support of this. It's always been a huge pain in the ass searching through transformation tags (one of my favorite fetishes) because of this.

This means a female transforming into a shemale does not qualify, right?

We class shemales as females, so correct.

In this case i suggest changing the definition to "A female becoming a futanari or a shemale does not qualify" for both tags.

I also sugest adding "A male becoming a cuntboy ou a otokofutanari does not qualify" for both tags.

This post has been edited by romanicyte: Dec 10 2021, 02:52

In this case i suggest changing the definition to "A female becoming a futanari or a shemale does not qualify" for both tags.

I also sugest adding "A male becoming a cuntboy ou a otokofutanari does not qualify" for both tags.

Mistaggings (for some reason) is seldom an issue for those cases. The notes are getting rather bloaty, and the existing note already implies that, so not gonna add them all unless the issue becomes prevalent.

Swapped "gender bender" to "gender change". The definition was also revised accordingly.

Activated "gender morph".

Thanks. A decade too late IMO, after so many thousands of galleries have been victimized by such an inane rule, but better late than never. Glad to see the definition of gender bender/change here finally match literally other site on the internet.


A couple of questions:

1. There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of misc:"body swap" galleries that had the "gender bender" tag vetoed. Can we automatically un-veto them? I assume it's technically feasible, given the other automated changes that just happened.

2. It seems like body swap gender benders are now under the "mixed" namespace, rather than "misc". Forum searches for "mixed" and "misc" showed no relevant posts about this, however. Double-checking, is "mixed" new and intended to replace "misc", and is that what we should use for gender bender body swaps from now on?

3. You didn't state it specifically, but this update also finally explicitly allows "skinsuit" to coexist with the gender bender/change tag. There have been tons of "skinsuit" and "possession" galleries over the past decade that had "gender bender" vetoed. What's the best way of un-vetoing them?
- Should we manually post to the "Tagging and Mistagging Assistance" thread? That seems really inefficient. Furthermore, I see legitimate un-veto requests there which never get addressed
- At the very least, can we get a list of "skinsuit" and "possession" galleries with "gender bender" vetoed? That way someone who is interested can sift through them and request for the relevant ones to be un-vetoed -- and I assume the vast majority should be un-vetoed

For users who are interested in everything gender bending (A, B, C, D, E), the old method requires the users to use both "gender bender" and "body swap" tags.

For the record, no. There was no old method. It was not possible.

Before, searching for "body swap" would get you irrelevant body swap results in under the "m" and "f" namespaces since searching for misc:"body swap" simply did not work (until last month). Lots of folks suggested excluding m:"body swap" and f:"body swap" in order to find gender bender body swaps, but that also didn't work since it excluded galleries which have "body swap" under multiple namespaces. Even mods were saying incorrect things. When even mods are confused, then you have a broken system.

It used to be even worse a few years back when people were much more anal about vetoing any gender bender gallery which didn't have a physical morph/transformation, including "skinsuit" and "possession".

So it was effectively impossible to search for all gender bender galleries here. And I would bet you a full bitcoin that the vast majority of people who enjoy gender bender works consider gender benders to include more than just physical morphs.

A decade too late IMO, after so many thousands of galleries have been victimized by such an inane rule, but better late than never.

No one is ever happy. I don't believe it was ever proposed in its current iteration as far as I've searched in that decade.

1. There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of misc:"body swap" galleries that had the "gender bender" tag vetoed. Can we automatically un-veto them? I assume it's technically feasible, given the other automated changes that just happened.

They need to be requested in tagging and mistagging assistance. Whether this is feasible or not, it won't be automated, some may have been veto'd for other reasons such as presence.

2. It seems like body swap gender benders are now under the "mixed" namespace, rather than "misc". Forum searches for "mixed" and "misc" showed no relevant posts about this, however. Double-checking, is "mixed" new and intended to replace "misc", and is that what we should use for gender bender body swaps from now on?

/index.php?showtopic=253042
Mixed does not replace misc, but it contains some tags that were in it. Misc is replaced by temp.

Summary:
Mixed = more than 1 participant comprised of more than 1 gender
Other = technical and other
Temp = Tags that have yet to be approved (the old misc)

3. You didn't state it specifically, but this update also finally explicitly allows "skinsuit" to coexist with the gender bender/change tag. There have been tons of "skinsuit" and "possession" galleries over the past decade that had "gender bender" vetoed. What's the best way of un-vetoing them?
- Should we manually post to the "Tagging and Mistagging Assistance" thread? That seems really inefficient. Furthermore, I see legitimate un-veto requests there which never get addressed
- At the very least, can we get a list of "skinsuit" and "possession" galleries with "gender bender" vetoed? That way someone who is interested can sift through them and request for the relevant ones to be un-vetoed -- and I assume the vast majority should be un-vetoed

You need to post them in tagging assist. If there's concern about them being voted, then some pointers:
Give page ranges
Keep the post easy to read, and split requests in groups of 5
Don't be antagonistic about it, everyone's a volunteer, and everyone has the right to not vote.

For the record, no. There was no old method. It was not possible.

Before, searching for "body swap" would get you irrelevant body swap results in under the "m" and "f" namespaces since searching for misc:"body swap" simply did not work (until last month). Lots of folks suggested excluding m:"body swap" and f:"body swap" in order to find gender bender body swaps, but that also didn't work since it excluded galleries which have "body swap" under multiple namespaces. Even mods were saying incorrect things. When even mods are confused, then you have a broken system.

It was possible, to some degree, to get the searches. It was overfiltered, but you could find galleries that contained what you wanted. An absolutely perfect all encompassing search that doesn't add anything you don't want nor removes anything you do want, is not always possible. Getting valid results was possible before, all this has done is made it more intuitive and in a way that doesn't remove as many valid results, while also clearly separating possession from what is now effectively gender morph.

https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Know_The_Difference#Gender_Change

It used to be even worse a few years back when people were much more anal about vetoing any gender bender gallery which didn't have a physical morph/transformation, including "skinsuit" and "possession".

So it was effectively impossible to search for all gender bender galleries here. And I would bet you a full bitcoin that the vast majority of people who enjoy gender bender works consider gender benders to include more than just physical morphs.

That so. Feel free to request unveto's for anything that passes now. It'd also be great if you go ahead and join the help in tagging gender morph, since although granted it's only been a few days, there's been no effort from you or the gender bend readers you are talking about to actually tag it yet.

And I would bet you a full bitcoin that the vast majority of people who enjoy gender bender works consider gender benders to include more than just physical morphs.

And you now own me a bitcoin.

No one is ever happy. I don't believe it was ever proposed in its current iteration as far as I've searched in that decade.

It was. One of my first posts on this forum over a decade ago was of me arguing that we needed a tag that encompassed all changes. Chilla4000 and "peolpledontdancenomore" were also there and roughly supporting the proposal though we had disagreements. (I might have remembered their usernames wrong.) My thinking evolved since then though.

I started a new thread a few years later complaining about how people were indeed voting up gender bender on body swap galleries and saying we needed to revise the tags to be in line with the rest of the internet. Even then nothing happened to put it mildly, (and I recall some other threads like that.)

I've witnessed regular tagging wars between people who wanted to see all content pertaining to gender change like on other sites and those who were using the badly named tag only for the narrow transformation as the definition had intended. The lesson to bear in mind for the future is that this is what happens when you allow people who aren't very much into a particular fetish to write and apply defintions that normal taggers wouldn't use without adequately consulting and heeding the general audience.

This post has been edited by sensualaoi: Dec 19 2021, 21:12

since although granted it's only been a few days, there's been no effort from you or the gender bend readers you are talking about to actually tag it yet.

?
Are you actually serious? You are bitching about people not noticing and immediately acting on an unannounced rule change within three days? I apologize for not spending thousands of hours actively monitoring a hentai site. How foolish of me to ask for help here on the best approach for un-vetoing things. My mistake.

So, just so i'm clear because gender bender is one of my go to searches for anything new, is gender change an all encompassing tag with sub modifiers of gender morph, like all gender morphs are gender change but not all gender change are gender morphs, or do i need to set up 2 different searches now?

Are you actually serious? You are bitching about people not noticing and immediately acting on an unannounced rule change within three days?

Pretty much yes. We thought that that type of language would be easier for you, with you being so comfortable in the bitching over things position and all.

So, just so i'm clear because gender bender is one of my go to searches for anything new, is gender change an all encompassing tag with sub modifiers of gender morph, like all gender morphs are gender change but not all gender change are gender morphs, or do i need to set up 2 different searches now?

If gender changes from one gender to another, = gender change
In addition to gender change, you can tag the others based on how the change happened.

So for example, if guy transforms into a woman, you'd tag m:gender change + m:gender morph + f:tags
You may tag transformation if the transformation scene passes presence.
If guy possesses a woman, you'd tag m:gender change + f:possession + f:tags.

Searchability wise, if you don't care how the change happened, you may search for just gender change in whatever namespace you want the original gender to be. Wanting a bloke changed to a woman you'd search m:"gender change$", or a woman changed to a bloke you'd search f:"gender change$"

Else, you can use possession, gender morph, etc, to refine it to the situation you want.

?
Are you actually serious? You are bitching about people not noticing and immediately acting on an unannounced rule change within three days? I apologize for not spending thousands of hours actively monitoring a hentai site. How foolish of me to ask for help here on the best approach for un-vetoing things. My mistake.

I did already note that it hasn't been long, you can take the push in whatever way you want. There's a lot of tagging to be done and the community best doing it is the one that actually cares about it. It's common that we get a "we need this tag!!11!" only for it to not get tagged except by vig. I don't have an interest in this tag much at all, so I'd be glad to drop off tagging it and invest that time elsewhere, as soon as the community touted as wanting it pull their fingers out.

I did already note that it hasn't been long, you can take the push in whatever way you want.

Let's not play pretend, folks aren't dumb and know what you mean. That's not pushing. That's just being an asshole. There are far more productive ways about it rather than attacking people. As you yourself put it, being antagonistic gets you nowhere.

There's a lot of tagging to be done and the community best doing it is the one that actually cares about it. It's common that we get a "we need this tag!!11!" only for it to not get tagged except by vig. I don't have an interest in this tag much at all, so I'd be glad to drop off tagging it and invest that time elsewhere, as soon as the community touted as wanting it pull their fingers out.

Stop it with the straw man conflating things. First you shit talk people for not tagging "gender morph" within three days of a change that took ten years to happen, and now you're talking generically about the typical "we need this new tag!!", as if that even matters here. No one asked for a new tag here. That already existed under the old "gender bender" tag definition, and people just wanted "gender bender" to actually encompass all gender benders, which is how that tag was being unofficially used anyway. And now it's officially allowed, now that the already-popular "gender bender" got renamed to "gender change".

Also, it seems like it hasn't sunk in for you yet, so let me try phrasing it differently: most people who are interested in gender bending works could give a rat's ass about about the old "gender bender" tag definition (i.e., the new "gender morph" tag). They just want to search for all gender bender works. You know, like every other site on the internet.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the "gender morph" tag fall into relative disuse. I've honestly seen more interest in the "gender morph" definition from mods like you as well as the rules-are-rules folks who parroted "read the gender bender wiki definition!!", and I've only seen a small amount of legitimate interest. I'd be happy if I was wrong here though.

I like the way it was put here:

The lesson to bear in mind for the future is that this is what happens when you allow people who aren't very much into a particular fetish to write and apply defintions that normal taggers wouldn't use without adequately consulting and heeding the general audience.